Once upon a time, being an underground rapper in New York City meant something. It is common knowledge that Company Flow's debut, 1997's Funcrusher Plus is considered a genre landmark . But as brazenly innovative as Funcrusher was, it did not come about in a vacuum. The 1990s saw rap music catapulted from the fringes of American popular culture directly into the mainstream. For a genre born out of rebelliousness and outsider sensibilities, a backlash was inevitable. When Funcrusher Plus dropped, the East Coast hip-hop scene and particularly the New York City underground was awash with talent, creativity and hunger. They were not all the same type of artists but to varying degrees they all felt locked out by the forces that controlled the mainstream music outlets. What Funcrusher Plus did was coalesce and give voice to that indignation, at the exact moment when newly founded indie label Rawkus Records was there to make sure the message was heard worldwide.

All of this is no secret; after all, this was a movement that birthed some of today's biggest names in independent hip-hop. And for those that lived it, there is little now that could compare to the days when a cipher outside Wetlands or the Nuyorican had the realistic possibility of outshining the show inside. A trip to Fat Beats might yield face-to-face encounters with Breezly Brewin or Hi-Tek. Getting into a show not only meant seeing some of your idols on stage, but, if you were lucky, rubbing shoulders with other luminaries in the crowd.




It was not until recently that I discovered BMS had just been released from a lengthy stint in prison for drug trafficking offenses. At the time, I found the similarities to John Forte’s case intriguing. Both artists initially came into the public eye by playing minor roles in classic 90s albums. In Forte’s case, it was his work with the Fugees on 1996’s mainstream blockbuster The Score. Nevertheless, Forte was arrested as part of a cocaine conspiracy in 2000, convicted at trial and jailed until George W. Bush commuted his sentence in 2008. Unlike Forte, BMS did not attend the prestigious Phillips Exeter Academy or have celebrities and Senators agitating for his release. There was no job at City College of New York waiting for him, and nary a mention of his case in the media. When COOL’EH got the chance to interview BMS, we found him contemplative, rueful, and determined to steer his life away from the forces that landed him in prison.

 


How long were you incarcerated?

As far as straight incarceration, probably about four and a half years. Then the work release program for around thirteen months, so about five and a half years altogether.

What exactly were you convicted on? How did you end up getting arrested?

Possession and sales of cocaine and crack cocaine. Task force, DEA…they had informants. This was actually my second conviction, the first time was relatively small but the second time it ended up being a lot worse. By the time [of the arrest] they had been on me for over a year.

I didn’t know that you were from Middletown, NY until recently. Give me some background on coming up there and how you got involved in hip-hop.

I am originally from Harlem, actually, but ended up moving upstate with my mother and her boyfriend. That was quite a while ago, years and years, because I did finish high school and junior high school up in this area. As far as getting into hip-hop, that was one of those things where once it came about, and you were hearing Grandmaster Flash and everybody…and then RUN DMC took off…it was already there. Around my neighborhood, projects and stuff, they were throwing block parties left and right, so it was just there. My involvement really picked up once I caught up with Masai. That was when I really started wanting to do music and write, put an album together…really get involved in hip-hop.

How long ago was that?

Man…I couldn’t even tell you [laughs]. It was so long ago, I can’t even remember. We was both young though, [maybe] beginning of the 90s? Maybe even before that…



For most of the people who know your music well, their first introduction to you was as part of the New York underground movement of the late 1990s. So how do you go from doing your thing upstate with Masai to being featured on records like Funcrusher Plus.

I had moved back to Manhattan in those years. I was still living there when it ended up that I was with Cage-this was when we were still hanging together- and somehow he had ended up getting connected with Fred, Stretch & Bob, and they were introducing him to different avenues. So, of course, he would come and stay with me every now and then and I was right there with him, meeting the same people. But the spotlight was on him then because he was working harder to get his stuff out there and actually get an album done. Anyway, we were at a radio station and that was when I first heard El, I forget what song it was on, but they were telling [Cage] about El-P. Then we went to go talk to him about some beats and stuff, and from there El and I hooked up. This was before Company Flow had really had gotten their start either, they had one song out or something. A demo. So we linked up and he wanted to do something, and so that was when it started. I was pretty much on top of the underground scene but it wasn’t really what it was [going to become], so I guess I just got in at the right time.

Were you just looking at it like a hobby, or were you taking it seriously?

Oh, I was definitely taking it seriously! At that time it was kinda uncertain, it was tough to see where everybody’s head was at, how far they really wanted to go with this. I was seeing that yeah, we got potential, we could make some moves…but I didn’t know where everyone was trying to go with it. I knew where I wanted to go with it but sometimes it’s like you gotta find that door, get your foot in. So I was kinda on the outside trying to see where I could work my way in there and maybe get a deal up, get an album out, make myself heard, y’know? But I was definitely taking it seriously, it was just rough then. Everything was still pure; you were just finding ways to come up with a beat or get into a studio, finding ways to put something out, everybody was hungry. It wasn’t motivated by money yet; it was about the hunger for recognition.



Most of the recording was done at El’s place downtown, he had his little setup, he didn’t have too much but it was enough to get us going. Masai started buying some equipment and I started buying some equipment, but pretty much that is where we were recording. When me and El got together we kinda hit it off well. Me, him, Jus, Len…we were all just trying to get music done but we were having fun with it. I liked them. To me it felt like they were really about trying to make it happen, so that’s why I liked being a part of it.


So how did things change when Funcrusher Plus, and the Indelibles 12” drop?

My thing was…it was still the same; I was just trying very hard to get stuff done. I wanted to get my material done and it was taking its time and maybe I wanted things to speed up a little bit. Around that time I had moved [back to Middletown] and I wasn’t down in the city anymore, I was just going back and forth. And you know…once El and everybody…once the record had dropped and stuff is getting done, sometimes people get put on the back burner. That is what changed for me and I can understand it, to a point, because there is a whole lot going on.



We were touring and doing shows and stuff, but I kinda wanted to get in the studio and work on my stuff. But the thing is, when you don’t have your own, you have to do things at [other people’s] convenience and at their leisure. So, during that time I didn’t have the resources to just go and be like “Well, I’ll get a beat from this guy” or, “I’ll go record over here”, so I was still at that point where I was still trying to find that avenue or that doorway.

From the outside it seemed like one minute you were a significant part of that whole movement with Rawkus, Co-Flow, and that whole moment in the underground scene…and the next moment you had completely disappeared. What happened?

Yeah, around that time, I didn’t end up doing the Indelibles. I wasn’t there, not that anybody had called me and told me it was going down but y’know, whatever. I ended up doing “Mucho Stereo” and instead of that being the single, he was like “We’re gonna put it on the other side [of the Weight 12”]”. I was like alright, because to me exposure was exposure. I popped up on a few other things I can’t even remember, here and there, this person’s compilation, that persons whatever. I was working but that wasn’t what I really wanted, I wanted to do my own records. At that time, me and El was on the level where he said he wanted to do the EP or the album [with me]. So I was like “Fine, lets get it done, but you can only spread yourself out so thin before something takes a hit. If you want to work on my stuff, then let’s work on it”. But people say things and then don’t always do what they say.
Still, we got on the road and did shows, and that was all fine and dandy but its still on everybody else’s thing. And at that time, for as good a Funcrusher Plus did, it took a [backseat] to Mos Def and Talib Kweli. So of course, people take a hit for that. They got their videos done and did another one, while we was still trying to get one video done, possibly another one. In a lot of cases, that is how the business is. Sometimes, if you don’t put your foot down and speak up very loudly for yourself, where everybody has to stop and turn their head, a lot of times you get swept under the rug.



So did you make a conscious decision to pull back from that or did you just wake up one day and not have time for the music anymore?

Well, once things weren’t going my way, it was like “Okay, I gotta do something because this is what I want to do”. By that time, I was already knee deep in the game and I figured that I have money; I can just buy my own equipment and learn how to work with it. Masai was working on his stuff, so I got on his record, and from being in and out of studios, I knew what I needed to get started. I had an extra room in my crib and I put everything in there, and it worked. It’s one of those things where you can see where you went wrong and what you coulda done differently…but that’s another life and another story anyway.

True. You never know where a path not taken might have led…

Yeah. I know I coulda focused more of my time and energy on doing my stuff but by that time I was spreading myself thin, so, just like I was saying earlier, one thing or the other was gonna take a loss. In this case it was the music.

So how did you end up “knee deep in the game”? How did you get involved in hustling and how did it get serious?

Aw man, it started a long time ago. I was working, I was on my own, I’ve been on my own since a young age. Then I needed a [new] job, I was searching and looking, but nothing was coming. I got to a point where I lost my crib and I was pretty much on the down-and-outs. I knew quite a few people and got with one of my boys who was doing his thing, living quite nicely and he knew my situation. He put it in my hands…helped me out, so now I gotta eat. So I hit the block and I got me something to eat, and just kept eating after that. It went from me trying to put a lil’ roof over my head, something in the pocket and something on the table to where I just couldn’t leave it alone. People try to act like it aint addictive but it is, and it goes beyond the fame and glory. I just got so accustomed to where I didn’t have to worry about where the next meal was coming from. I didn’t have to worry about the rent being paid, about putting gas in any vehicle…it was just there. And in that whole process, for quite some time, I lost myself. It just got deep, where I wasn’t even thinking about it any more. It was just like this is my life and that’s it. That’s just how it is.


So you said you caught a case and did time prior to the one you just did time for?

Yeah, around 2002. That wasn’t too much. I didn’t do a whole lot of time behind that one. But still, time away is still hard and I wouldn’t wish it on anybody. You shouldn’t subject yourself or your family to that. There was an informant, once again. The informant was close; it wasn’t anybody that I just met. It was someone I had known for years, about ten years. And y’know…that’s in the game. That’s one of those instances where it could have happened to anybody because you don’t think, or suspect, a person that you knew for a while. It sounds kinda ignorant still, because it could be anybody, but you just are not thinking that it could have come from that person.

Well, the reality of dealing drugs is that everybody has to trust someone.

Yeah, exactly. If you don’t you wont be doing any business at all. Things have to change hands, somebody has to talk to somebody and somebody has to talk to you.

So you come out after that bid and what happened?

I came home after like ten months. [Completed] the drug treatment program and all that but it was one of those where I brushed it off. Thing was I was still upset, and I felt like I had to get back out and prove something. So, of course I came back out and instead of just relaxing and working on the music, I felt like I had to go show these fools what time it is and “get my weight back up”. Gotta be back on the block again; go showboat, do the parade, come out with a new whip and ride around town, let everybody see I’m back home. Get a couple buddies to take me out to the bar and just toast it up, buy everybody a round. Just typical stupid shit. I look back on it…you look at yourself in the mirror and just are like, what were you thinking? Once aint enough, you gotta be stupid twice?
So that is when they came with another person I had known for some time, you know. And I caught myself trying to help him out; meanwhile he is working with the police.

So this second setup you got bagged on much bigger charges. Were you doing bigger things or they lured you into do something larger?


It was pretty rough. It started out that I was gonna chill for a minute and see what happened but it had not been that long of a time away. Things hadn’t really changed that much, so by the time I had came back home it was like everybody was already waiting for me to come back home and do the same stuff I had been doing. So I wouldn’t say it was a larger scale, it was pretty much the same because before I went away I had already established myself. Essentially, I was dealing with a lot as it was already. Basically, they just didn’t catch me the way they would have really liked to have the first time. They couldn’t put too much on me because they just didn’t have the evidence.

So when you got out, did you go back to doing music?

Yeah, prior to [that incarceration] I had started my own label and I was determined to get stuff done. And we were getting things done; Masai and I got in the studio and were working on stuff. I had built a studio in the house; we were working on material…everything was going great. I was calling distributors figuring out how to best market and promote it. And you know, they say when you’re doing something and you give up…most likely when you gave up, you were almost there. And that is kinda how I look at it. By me having to do time, I kinda gave up. I pretty much had enough [money] to stop, support myself and just work on the music. That’s what I should have done. Shoulda, woulda, coulda.

So what happened the second time?

The second time was just…I think I my mind state was pretty much “Fuck everybody, I’m doing what I want to do and that’s it”. [In my mind] I had to get back what I had lost. See, the first time they had managed to take some vehicles from me, as a part of a deal. Basically I had to give up this, give up that, and sign this over, pay X amount of dollars over here. So I come out and it’s not like I’m hurting or I needed to go out and jump right back in, I still had a roof over my head, two cars in the garage. It’s not like I really needed to go and do anything. Yeah, I wanted to put some money back in the stash and all that stuff, but I didn’t have to. It was almost like an “I’ll show you” type of thing, like I wanted to show everybody that I could get knocked down and get right back up. Of course, we all know, there are other ways of doing that. And in the process of trying to get back what I felt like I had lost, I only ended up losing a lot more in the long run.



So it was another person that I knew and they were working with the police, yet again. So I am giving something to him and he turns around and gives it right to them, got me caught up in a whole ‘nother mess.

So how did it go down? They came to your house or…

I was out. I was actually going to drop something off and they were in the middle of doing their cleanups, looking for everyone who was in these sealed indictments. I just happened to pop up in town and they didn’t waste any time.


Oh, so you didn’t have any idea yet that you were under indictment?

Well, I had kinda heard through, y’know, one of “those” sources. If you keep your ear to the ground everybody has ways of finding out about stuff because everybody ear hustles. So, this friend of mine came and said “Such-and-such was down at the police station and heard your name”. It was one of those. So I was like “Oh yeah?” and they said the police was looking for me. And I was like, well I’m not that hard to find, I’m driving around in a white Expedition [laughs]. So I was cocky, and instead of taking a cool-out vacation, I was like “Well, when they get me, they get me”. I also took it with a grain of salt, like it could be true but it could also be someone just talking ‘cause they got lips. I was being stupid; I had this aint-nobody-gonna-do-nothing-to-me type attitude going on.
But somewhere deep inside I did have the gut feeling that what this person was telling me was true and usually when you don’t go with your gut you end up kicking yourself in the behind later. And that was the same way it was the first time [I got set up], my gut told me “don’t go”, but it was a decent amount. Somebody hit me up in the afternoon, talking about, hey check me, I got a purse for you. So I was like okay, because I knew that meant 2 g’s or better, so I’m going to get that. This was the first time. This person called me and wanted to get some coke from me, wanted to spend about 2 g’s…we didn’t have that conversation over the phone but I knew what it was. At the same time, I had that gut feeling, but I went anyway.




Were you tried as part of a conspiracy? Was it a RICO thing?

In the beginning they wanted to do all that, but they only had me and another person in their sights. Basically, they couldn’t put all the pieces together. But what happened was, I had avoided quite a few charges because they kinda rushed it, really, got thirsty about it. There were some things on there they were bringing up but they couldn’t charge me for so they had to automatically throw it out. They couldn’t get any conspiracy or RICO or [violence] or anything. They had the indictment but everything else was pretty much hearsay.

You pleaded guilty, correct?

Yeah, with the evidence they had it wasn’t no sense in ending up doing twice as long trying to fight it.

What’s the worst thing about an incarceration of that length? Obviously, people do a lot more than that but five years is five years.

Well, first off, all of it is bad. I hear people all the time talking about “Yo, son, I was running this and doing that”. Bullshit! If you aint wearing blue and carrying a stick and a badge, you aint running nothing up there. I have seen some deals go down where someone had some inside people but that is about it.



One of the worst things…is your family, or whoever, your loved ones, coming to see you. The look on their face…people try to act like they are happy to see you but aint nobody happy to see you in there. And the bad thing about it is you know that and when the visit is over, and you watch them walk through those gates, and you are just standing there waiting to get strip-searched, checked and sent back inside. That’s one of the worst things. See, you gotta really be extremely ignorant to not know what they are going through, because they gotta get checked coming in there. Sometimes they get ridiculed by some of the guards. Or your girl comes and if she looks any kind of decent, somebody might have something slick to say. Sometimes you gotta know how to pick and choose those battles because you might ask what [a guard] said and they wont even tell you because they just want you to get that time done and come home. And they know that if you are in that frame of mind and end up fighting one of the guards, that will automatically increase your stay.

Then, just to see some of the older guys that’s been doing it, and been locked up for a while, some of their mind states…if you looked at it from an outside perspective you feel bad like “Is this what my people have been reduced to?” Some of these guys are well in their forties and fifties, standing around in the yard with they pants off they ass, trying to talk like they friggin’ eighteen in front of these young guys. Kids signing up to be in gangs because they scared. It’s like, man, I wouldn’t wish this on nobody because it just makes it worse. Especially the older ones, who are supposed to be passing down some sort of knowledge, like straighten up, get your act together or this is what it is going to be.



Some kids don’t even want to try and get a GED; they are just talking about getting out to go hustle again. Eighteen, twenty years old. So you know they are coming right back. But I cant help somebody who cant help themselves because if that is all you want for your life, that is all you’re gonna get. You would be surprised how many talented and smart people you come across who you know could do so much more than what they’re doing, but they’re just stuck in a mindset where that is all they want to do.

I hear you. Thing is, with this war on drugs, I don’t ever see it ending. I mean, it’s capitalism, right? If there is that big of a market for drugs like cocaine, then someone always going to be willing to sell them. It’s like the thing has a propulsion all it’s own, where the more people go to jail, the more it just becomes a normal part of life in our communities.

It’s a hard one. I aint gonna front, right now staying on the right path is a lot harder than going the other way. I’m living, but it’s not all that easy. Some days that temptation will get you. Everything looks so appealing. You see old associates from past times and it’s like hmm…you start wondering.

How do you feel now about the people who informed on you and do you ever see any of them? I mean, Middletown cant be that big of a place.

It can be [laughs]. Well…I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t still harboring some feelings because I didn’t see one, I saw the other. And I whupped his ass. I can be forgiving but not that forgiving.


So when you came out from this last bid, did you feel like you were done with the music?

When you do time, it takes its toll on you. You get the chance to look back and reflect on a lot of things in life and it was like, hey, I had a good run. Had fun, got to see some different things, different parts of the world that I might not have seen on my own. But I felt like maybe, it aint in me no more to try and continue to do music. So I pretty much gave it the ax. It was still in me, memories, pictures, video footage, stuff like that but yeah. After coming out though, I was talking to Masai-that’s my brother right there- and he [laughs], he’s one of those people who just has confidence in you, wont give up on you.  So he's asking me if I’m ready and I’m like “Eh” but he is talking to Nasa and then I went to a show he had in Brooklyn, and sometimes that is what it takes. You start salivating out the side of your mouth and get hungry again.

So are we going to hear more new music from you?

Definitely. The process has already started. Masai and I got back together, Zesto, Nasa. I have been talking to Vast a lot, so something is definitely coming. I remember how I felt about it when I was just starting out, so that is where I’m trying to take it, back to where it was for me when it all began. That’s the only way I can come with it, it has to be that pure, natural thirst for recognition. Not about money, not about nothing but doing what you love and putting your life into it. And y’know, life for me has been up and down. It’s been tough but I’m bringing all that with me.